Over the last week or so, the anti-PVC brigade and the debate they bring has reared it’s head again. I was reading the latest comment from John Cowie on the Windows Active website and totally agreed with everything he had to say. On the website, John was commenting on the PVC vs quilted curtain debate. The council in question was telling it’s residents that it couldn’t replace their windows with energy-efficient PVC ones, they had to use timber, which was going to be more expensive and something that the residents could not afford. So, what was the council’s alternative? Quilted curtains. I don’t think the residents were jumping up and down about that proposal.
Sounds stupid doesn’t it? “Oh, you need new windows, but you’re not allowed what you want. You have to have these expensive timber ones because you’re in a conservation area and if you can’t afford it you’ll just have to put heavy curtains up instead!”
One of John’s echoed one of my long standing frustrations:Â In an age and era of increased innovation in the fenestration sector it is staggering to think that a council is so narrow minded in its requirements for choice of frame material.
Over the last few years, our sector has ploughed millions upon millions into research and development to come up with fantastic new products. There are some truly great timber-alternative windows out there with some awesome wood grain textures and detailing, as well as traditional hardware and mock-wood features which mimic brilliantly the old wooden variants. Yet despite the leaps and bounds our manufacturers have made to make PVC the best of both worlds, organizations like English Heritage, National Trust and many councils stubbornly just refuse to acknowledge the existence of such products. Or at least it looks that way.
It is a constant battle for PVC companies to prove that their products not only provide the most energy efficient options, but that the new range of timber-alternative products would also be sympathetic to the character of the buildings. Higher authorities seem to care little about this sort of issue, so as always it is down to us to do something about it. Personally, my idea would be to create an industry-wide and nation-wide education campaign aimed specifically at the heritage organizations and councils, educating them about the new advancements in our technology and aesthetics. Use case studies of old buildings that have used various types of double glazing to their advantage and show off how the character has been kept. It is only by hitting those opposed hard in the face, repeatedly with the evidence and proof that our industry can do great things for this country’s treasured heritage buildings and listed housing stock.
Either way, this PVC and double glazing bashing has to stop from the heritage groups. People can see right through it and one day they’r going to go a step too far and our industry will be forced to act more forcefully in the future. Ideally, our sectors need to be working together for the greater good of our old buildings, because at the minute it’s the buildings themselves that are suffering.
DGB,
A quick google search for ‘Brighton PVC-U v timber will direct you to a great document where Brighton & Hove commissioned a report into the implications of using PVC-U in favour of timber windows.
The report highlighted that they would save ÂŁ8.5m over the 3 year scheme and ÂŁ22m over 30 years including painting/maintenance by using PVC-U instead of timber.
It makes for an interesting read!
If you email me i can forward the doc direct.
Phil
Thanks for this Phil, I have emailed you ;-)
My view is biased as we are a timber window supplier. There is a place for upvc and for timber. The BWF state that if looked after (all windows need regular maintenance) they should last at least 60 years, that is about 3 times longer than most upvc frames. Bear in mind our products have a 30 year warranty against a 10 year warranty for upvc. They are also guaranteed not to require painting for 10 years and when they do require painting they only require a single coat with no rubbing down, primer or undercoat. Hardly an extreme maintenance… Read more »
To my mind, the real issue on Upvc is not the overall finish or grained skins on straight runs, but the groove in the welded corners and the ” thicker” opening sashes relative to the transoms and mullions.Years ago, Malcolm Scholes, after much effort, managed to get a replicable clean flush corner on his product, This coupled with a slim sash and ovolo detail ( copied by half of the industry since) led the way towards more acceptance by the Luddite Heritagers. There are a few companies that have come up with expensive wood look joints options since, most of… Read more »
Having been in the industry during Malcolm Scholes era and having met him during my later days with Rehau he was the professor of the double glazing industry always striving to come up with new ideas for our industry.We at Roseview having seen the recent invention of windows reverting full circle back to mechanical jointing on flush casement windows especially on foiled finish products like Residence 9 and the great response they have had to a virtually maintenace free option to timber,we have followed suit with the most authentic heritage sash Pvcu window on the market `Ultimate Rose` with its… Read more »
Thanks Willie. Please forward details of the residence 9 so that we can compare it to alternatives. Why doesn’t one of the big boys in the industry employ Malcolm as a consultant with a view to bringing out a beautiful Heritage window. Scholes products had their flaws but were way ahead in the looks department. So much innovation by one man whose vast experience is currently going to waste. Clip together conservatories, variable angled cornerposts easily fixed to windows, a staff bead for vertical sliders, ultra slim sash copy transom, shaped threshold capping for Upvc thresholds, Qlon gaskets and Vaycron… Read more »
I agree with Martin Bevan. Every product has it’s market. What this industry often fails to do is give the customer the choice! What we do forget is the dominance of pvc for many years. Many are conditioned to it, there are still many customers who believe replacement windows are only available in pvc. Those window companies that offer the entire product range to their customers and not just plastic windows and doors are those that are really offering the customer the choice they deserve and the opportunity to see what they CAN have and what the entire industry offers… Read more »
I live in a conservation area – I also sell uPVC and wood and aluminium windows. I think English Heritage and the like are generally to be applauded for their work. Whilst SOME uPVC windows are close to looking like an original timber window (from a distance) in character and in finish it only really applies with white. And only on a few brands of window (or extrusion supplier). Even the best woodgrain foiled finishes still look obviously fake. And in conservation areas and especially in Listed Buildings it would be a travesty to put in uPVC. People have to… Read more »
First and foremost, like Martin I am biased but from the ‘dark side’. It never fails to amuse me how comments like “I often advise customers that in certain situations upvc may suit their budget better, but quite often they decide that they would rather wait until they can afford the real thing!” creep in to the debate….. (firstly, the material has been called PVC-U since the mid 1980’s) There was a time when houses were made of wattle and daub, roads made of stone pavers and clothing made out of animal skins, does that mean that more recent products… Read more »
Thank you Willie Kerr of Roseview Windows and Paul Pixley of Bahama Home Improvements for your kind comments about pvcu window design. It is fair to say that I was passionate about my subject and worked tirelessly to improve the visual impact of pvcu windows into the new and existing housing stock.There were many innovations. Probably the first was the slim sash line incorporating an espagnolette, the first all sculptured window and door system we called Cascade. A flush country casement, sash called Revival which integrated with the existing suite. Now that would really have made an impact especially the… Read more »
Hi Malcolm. Nice to see you surface. Kehinde is a very self effacing person and it is good that you render deserved praise to him after all these years. He is probably also the ultimate loyal employee. Even when Scholes went through their troubled years, he never denigrated his employer or his company in any way but smiled encouragingly throughout. What a wonderful example to others! Malcolm and Kehinde were the forefathers of virtually all the design aesthetics that we are so keen on today. Is it typical of our industry that all this effort goes unrecognized and unawarded? Other… Read more »
Re: Malcolm Scholes
I have been trying to contact Malcolm who, in 2001 was able to replace original “sunburst” Art Deco double patio doors with superb hardwood, double glazed units. Malcolm copied the original style superbly and they were absolutely wonderful. The house is in Bridport, Dorset. It is with sadness that I gather from all the blog messages Malcolm is no longer in the business – as I have another project for him! A great shame that such a talented architectural ‘artist’ is no longer available :(
I have bought R9 windows for my residence and i have had nothing but trouble with them. Air and water ingress. even after a year i am still trying to get the problems recified. they are not fit for purpose.